[ocaml-biz] Some logo for your OCaml related websites

[William D. Neumann]

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 13:28:51 -0700, Brandon J. Van Every wrote

> As noted on caml-list, we can't use this for serious marketing as 
> it's a clear violation of R.J.Reynolds Tobacco's trademark.

Absolutely.  It looks far too much like Joe Camel...

> We can't just use any old camel we like either, because O'Reilly has 
> a trademark on using a camel to represent its Perl books. 
> http://perl.oreilly.com/usage  

This is a wee bit fuzzier.  I read the O'Reilly pages on this matter (the above page and the Perl camel 
FAQ <http://perl.oreilly.com/pub/a/oreilly/perl/usage/faq.html>), and it is unclear to me whether 
the domain that O'Rielly has the trademark under is programming languages in general or Perl 
specifically.

> Not every animal is created equal,
>  however.  There are at least 3 ways to treat an animal:
> 
> - realistically
> - comically
> - abstractly

Just personal preference speaking here, but I'm not a big fan of comical representations.

> When trying to work on Python logos, we chose to pursue graphical
> abstractions of snakes as they'd be more "suit friendly".  We 
> thought a comical treatment would be a turnoff to business types.

Agreed.
  
> We didn't want a realistic snake because many people fear and loathe 
> them. 

I'm not so sure that applies to camels (unless we're talking a overly realistic image of one with the 
patchy fur and spit flying everywhere), or oysters/pearls [1].

> Analogously, O'Reilly is in the way for a 'realistic camel'.

Perhaps -- more clarification is needed here.  However, even if it were legally clear for us to use a 
camel as the image for OCaml, I don't think it's a good idea.  Perl already has the association with the 
camel, and any use of the image with OCaml could likely be seen as an attempt to: Hijack the image; 
Ride the coattails of Perl; Represent Caml as a Perl wannabe...  none of these are too positive.

> Analogously, the first order of business for an OCaml logo is securing INRIA's support and buy-in.
> Failure to do so spells doom.

Well, I'm not sure I'd go that far.  It seems to me that OCaml is still at the stage that a de facto logo 
could be imposed upon them (I'm not sure, but I'm guessing that's what happened with Perl -- the 
association created by O'Reilly between camels and Perl was so strong, Perl had little choice but to 
make it their logo).  Still, I think it's the appropriate way to go -- and I think his would be a much 
less thorny issue with the INRIA crowd than, say, releasing control of the standard library to the 
world at large...

> So:
> 1) who's got art skills?

Well, you can see me reaching the upper level of my skills at <http://www.unm.edu/~wdnx/
camlpearl.html> where I've placed a couple of mockups of an idea spawned by Damien Doligez [1].  
As one can see there are a few problems with these images:
  1) They are made from photographs, and hence too complex for a logo -- though a logo could 
easily be derived from them.
  2) Some may view the use of a pearl as a logo for Caml (where Perl itself uses a camel) as a snarky 
swipe at Perl.  I, on the other hand, love the irony, and actually view it as a bit of an homage to Perl 
(who's influence I greatly respect, even though I dislike programming in it).
  3) The secondary use of the camel may or may not run afoul of O'Reilly's trademark.  And even if it 
does not, it might not be the best idea to make it so obvious if we were to try to establish the oyster/
pearl identity as a logo for Caml.  This requires more thought and debate...

I do, however, have a friend (well, friend-in-law) who is an artist.  While she's not a graphic artist, 
she can draw a fair spot better than I can... whether she'd do something like this on spec is, of 
course, another matter.

> 2) who's good at INRIA diplomacy?  (not me)

Heh.  A fair understatement.

[1] For those of you who missed it, it was noted on the Caml-list that Perl already had a trademark 
on the use of a camel, and we would (likely) need to go with another image.  Damien followed up 
with a suggestion of a pearl in an oyster.  I like this idea for a number of reasons: The irony is just 
delicious; It is a sort of homage to the influence of Perl; Pearls have a very positive connotation with 
the world at large; When I think of functional programming, I often think of the Functional Pearls 
series of articles in the Journal of Functional Programming.  This, of course, doesn't mean that it 
should be the only suggestion for a logo -- just that it has a number of arguments in its favor.

William D. Neumann